In the third weekly episode of “Playing President,” Ray McGovern, 27-year CIA veteran and briefer of five presidents, continues to make sense of the world to “President” Scheer, who prepared for this role through his decades as a journalist, including in-depth interviews with five presidents from Nixon to Clinton. This week the focus is on the sweeping student protests across the U.S. and world, the Draconian House-passed antisemitism bill moving to the Senate, and the frightening future awaiting Ukraine and Taiwan after the recent passage of the Biden administration’s massive military aid package.

Credits

Co-Hosts:

Robert Scheer and Ray McGovern

Introduction:

Diego Ramos

Transcript

Ray McGovern: Okay Good morning, Mr. President. It’s good to see you again.

Robert Scheer: Well, I need to talk to you this morning. What’s going on? The country falling apart? What are these students doing? What’s happening here?

McGovern: Mr. President, the students are clearly upset by what’s happening in the Middle East. They don’t like the idea of a genocide, and the protestors are saying that this could not happen without direct support from your administration. That has them up in arms. It reminds me, actually, of way back during Vietnam, when students started disturbing the peace, so to speak, because they couldn’t countenance what was going on in Vietnam. It seems to be an eerie parallel here, which we can discuss if you wish.

Scheer: Yeah, but, Ray, I know you’ve been around a long time, 27 years, I think, in the CIA. I count on you this has got nothing to do like Vietnam, because Vietnam, we had a draft, and that’s the whole problem the president had then. It’s not just some academic discussion about war and peace, but that these young men are going to go and. kill or be killed and it was real serious. What these students got to do with what’s going on there in Israel and what we got to do with this is all between Israel and Hamas and I don’t understand how we became a big target on this. But what’s happening there? Are there foreign agitators? I hear stuff about this. So what happened there at Columbia? We’re getting complaints now that the U.S. The CIA was somehow involved with the New York mayor and police. There’s somebody in, both at Columbia and over there at the police department and they ordered a crackdown or did the thing what’s going on? Was this a CIA operation?

McGovern: Mr. President just as in Vietnam, this was self propelled. What’s distinctive about these demonstrations is as these young students had no skin in the game as you just noted, there’s no draft. So why are they so upset. Their supporters contend that it’s an altruistic thing. They watch on social media, not so much on major media. The killings that are going on in Gaza. They’re afraid that they will continue in Rafah. And they’re out there in a kind of disinterested, but very altruistic way to say, look, we Americans don’t support genocide. We know what happened during World War II. And so it’s very distinctive in that respect. And in some respects, when you don’t have your own skin in the game, But that speaks well for your principles and your willingness to be arrested and put in prison.

Scheer: You mentioned before genocide. that’s what they’re claiming, but the CIA didn’t tell me anything about any genocide.

McGovern: Mr. President, it’s the International Court of Justice that ruled on the South African application. for a stop to the genocide. They said there was plausible genocide going on in Israel, and that the Israelis really ought to stop it, in Gaza, of course. And the Israelis have thumbed their nose in their accustomed way, and have not stopped it. The thing that has the students, in the United States and now spreading to Britain and all kinds of other countries, upset is that the Israelis could not do this without the arming and the political support of your administration. So if you’re asking me to explain it, that’s the best I can do. It is a little reminiscent of Vietnam, but as I said, there’s an altruistic interest here that is not supported by skin in the game this time, so these students, not likely to stop. I don’t know if there are enough jails or prisons around to hold them all.

Scheer: Wait a minute. You say they’re altruistic. I saw people telling me there’s stories now that a lot of them are outside agitators. Who’s putting them up to this? The Russians? The Chinese? What’s going on and then, what’s this thing? That the CIA somehow was involved at Columbia University? What do they got to do with this? New York Police, that was a local action. What’s going on here? Is this another conspiracy theory?

McGovern: In a sense, it is, Mr. President. These are the same people telling you these things that told you about those babies in Gaza being beheaded, that told you about babies being baked in ovens. These lies have been long exposed by the Israeli media themselves. So for them to tell you this is outside agitators, again, that’s reminiscent of Vietnam when people were suspecting that the Russians and the Chinese were stoking the ferment on campuses. It was much simpler than that. As for the CIA tie with the NYPD, that goes back to the early 2000s, 2002 or so, when one of the deputy directors of the CIA, his name was David Cohen, I knew him, was appointed deputy commissioner. Actually, he was head of the intelligence section of the NYPD to hunt out Muslims and other terrorists. And of course, they got firmly in with the NYPD. And now you have the mayor himself bragging about this woman at Columbia who has a day job in this institute where Hillary Clinton and Victoria Nuland now teach. But her real job is to monitor student ferment and report that to the NYPD and say, okay, now go in there. So it’s pretty…

Scheer: Wait, because we’re getting a lot of heat on this. This is Rebecca Wiener. Yeah, so she is not CIA, right? She’s a professor at Columbia, right? And you say it’s got something to do with Hillary Clinton?

McGovern: No it’s the same institute.

Scheer: Oh, but she’s a professor, expert on foreign policy or something, right?

McGovern: That’s what she’s called, an adjunct professor. That usually means, as you know well, that’s somebody without the proper degrees, but given a position as a sinecure or as a cover for the real job. What I’m saying here is that the mayor of the city of New York has now said that she was indispensable in monitoring this ferment. And that, when she saw through her sources, her agents on campus, that it was getting dangerous, the NYPD went in on us.

Scheer: Okay, but I just want to clear this up. The CIA, ever since Senator Frank Church’s commission, they’re not supposed to be meddling. They never were supposed to be meddling in domestic stuff. What do they have to do with the New York PD? That doesn’t hold up, does it?

McGovern: That’s a really good question. Now, David Cohen, of course, did not become head of the intelligence section of the NYPD until he retired, so there’s a fine line between being retired and doing that.

Scheer: He had the same job she’s got now, and he went from the CIA to the New York PD?

McGovern: This is the first time I’ve heard of her. She wouldn’t have to be a CIA staffer. She could be what we used to call an agent of influence. At any rate, she’s a successor to this embeddedness of the intelligence services who are supposed to be focused outward in the NYPD and other police departments.

Scheer: Yeah, so why wouldn’t it be the FBI that would be embedded in the, it’s not supposed to be… Anyway, we gotta check on that, see if it’s real or not. But that’s not outside agitators I’m talking about. I’m talking about Russians, Chinese. Who are these other people? They say they’re not all students. What are they?

McGovern: The interesting thing, Mr. President, is no one has been produced that has a Russian and a Chinese accent, so to speak.

Scheer: Okay, maybe it’s not them directly, but what, is this? Because, you say it’s altruistic, yeah, but like I say, that’s what they claim about their Vietnam War protesters, but, they were also not willing to serve, they were going to be drafted, they didn’t like it, so you can understand, makes sense. You don’t want to go fight in this war. But these people, and what, they got a lot of Jewish people even there, the Jewish Voice for Peace and other things. So what’s going on here? This is going to be a big issue in the election because they are demoralizing the young vote that I need to get reelected.

Let’s just be clear on this. I’m not asking this as some kind of academic exercise, and it’s going to be coming up because Trump is, President Trump I’m supposed to say, but, former president, but, he, hang on, those words just get stuck in my mouth, the idea of president and then he might be president again, and it just drives me crazy. But anyway, he’s going to say, we didn’t do enough, we didn’t do enough, and we should have sent the National Guard or what have you. On the other hand, You got all these young people, evidently they’ve been, what, bamboozled into thinking this is some great human rights thing that, retaliation on Hamas for their terrible thing they did to the Israelis. That’s going to be an election year, and I may lose a chunk. It’s one thing I’m going to lose, maybe even Michigan and these things, because of the Arab vote, but I’m going to lose the young vote? Why do they care? What’s going on here?

McGovern: As I tried to mention before, my idea is that these folks care about genocide. Now, it’s been a long time since the genocide was committed in Nazi Germany, but most people think about six million Jews were killed, exterminated. Now, in Gaza, you have two and a half million. One and a half million are now in Rafah. It looks like the Israelis are going to go into Rafah, despite what Blinken, your Secretary of State, is doing. I guess he just completed his seventh trip to the Middle East. he comes across to the Arabs and to the Jewish authorities as a little puppy dog saying, no, you better not do that. And then they do it anyway. So an answer to your question, the young people will not stop this until there’s a ceasefire and until there’s an end to the genocide in Gaza. And that’s the altruism coming in here. They care about Palestinian babies as much as they care about Jewish babies.

Scheer: Ray, the point is, if you could get some information and find out these outside agitators, because that would explain a lot. I don’t understand. Somebody’s gone to Columbia, or Princeton, or, I don’t, I guess UCLA or something. Do they want to jeopardize their career? They’re cracking down pretty hard on these kids, if they’re kids, and they’re expelling them. You may even get a felony if, because who knows, causing all this violence and everything like that. What kind of person would give up an ivy league degree or a prestigious college degree of any kind and risk that? I mean you must have you guys do a lot of psychological work psych war and everything, right? You do a lot of studies over there and your analysis stuff, you know What’s it? Is it TikTok? Are they getting brainwashed by TikTok? Is that it? Is that Chinese? That’s Chinese. So is that where it is? They’re watching because there’s 170 million people and they’re mostly these young people and they’re watching Chinese propaganda and then Chinese are telling them that this is what would you say genocide? No, it’s just Israelis trying to protect themselves.

McGovern: Mr. President, they’re watching Al Jazeera. They’re watching very reputable, non mainstream sources. And they can see what’s happening, that’s where the altruism comes in, and no skin in the game, no draft going on, no danger that they would have to be involved in a conflict like this, and they’re doing it anyway. I think that needs to be recognized. And as for Chinese/Russian influence, the, PAP explanation that’s given by congressmen as well as pundits is that the Russians and the Chinese are gloating over this. They’re seeing this as working out to their advantage. They’re really, and they’re doing everything they can to publicize it, to give us a black eye. That’s the extent of Russian and Chinese involvement that we see. Not much. Check with the FBI, if you will. See if they see any more. But be wary, because the FBI sets people up, and make sure you ask them as tenaciously as you ask me.

Scheer: Yeah, the thing that confuses me about the Russian thing is they got along well with Netanyahu, it isn’t Putin, he gets along. And the Chinese seem to get along there. And why would they be, they just want to make trouble for us, right? If they’re doing this, why would TiKTok? I know I don’t even know how to use this TikTok, but, why would they use their. It just seems to me, it’s very confusing. I thought they got along, the Russians, then the Chinese, they got along with Netanyahu, and what about Turkey? Turkey, we put them in NATO and everything, and they now just cut off trade and everything with Israel. What’s happening there?

McGovern: That’s a big step, Mr. President. the Turks are among the first to cut trade ties, and they have considerable ties. Israel, the bottom line here, is becoming more and more isolated and people could say, is that a good or a bad thing? I consider that a very bad thing because they’re very desperate and they’re likely to continue with what they’re doing in Gaza unless somebody intervenes who can stop them. And Mr. President, the world looks on and looks at you as the only person that could really say, knock it off. We don’t want any more Palestinians killed and we want to cease fire so that they can be fed.

Scheer: Then the same thing happens to me that happened to Lyndon Johnson, and you know it well. He said, no, we’re having trouble here with this war, and so forth. And Nixon then comes along and he promises he’s going to make peace just like Trump does, he can make a deal. And so you’re really asking me to speak out now. And I can’t get Netanyahu to do any of these things you know that. That’s the election right He’ll come here and personally campaign against me.

McGovern: Everyone knows that Mr. President, including these young people that you mentioned before and people in those major States that you need to win. There’s a simple solution, and of course, I’m an intelligence officer, I’m not going to suggest any policy. But if, let’s say, if you spoke out and said, Israel, we will not give you any more arms if you do further harm, in Rafah, the southern part of Gaza, which has 1.4 million people driven into this small enclave, we will not give any more arms if you strike out at Gaza and if you do not allow people not to starve. In other words, if you let more trucks in, the trucks are lined up at these, entry points. The business that you can fly stuff in, balloon, or you can build an, an offshore little landing, that’s crazy, what the president, what most people think the president can do is say, look, Mr. Netanyahu, open those gates, let those trucks come through, because the UN is saying that people are close to starvation and many have already starved.

Scheer: Yeah. Ronald Reagan said take down that wall, you can talk that as long as you’re standing up to the communists or something. But I stand up to Netanyahu and you’re going to have Trump for president. You know that and I know that. And, what’s it in, why would Netanyahu take that deal anyway? Right now, why would he go for that? Because he’ll be in jail. You know that. He’s got trouble with his own people. There’s huge demonstrations. He’s unpopular in Israel. I think, I don’t know, I wouldn’t defend him. But, Ray, let me ask you something else, right now, if we look at the campuses, yeah, you got to worry about them and everything. But you got the Republicans in Congress and the Democrats, majority are for it.

And I got to sign a bill if it gets through the Senate somehow. This thing that, you criticize Israel and you’re going to be breaking the law. You look at that? You guys examine that? I didn’t ask for that, but the Republicans, they got me between a rock and a hard place here. I don’t sign it if it gets through the Senate, I will see what Schumer thinks about all this and can do there. But, if I don’t sign that, then what? I’m supporting anti Semitism, right? That’s what that bill there, just passed the Congress. I’ll be accused of anti Semitism if I dare criticize Israel or cut off aid or something, right?

McGovern: Mr. President, of course, you’re aware of the First Amendment right to free speech and to outlaw criticism of any country, Israel or any other country. It’s very reminiscent of what happened in China during the Cultural Revolution, or what happened in the Soviet Union during its worst days. It’s the tool of, People who think your country should be the hegemon, should lead the world, and not countenance any criticism. That’s a real issue here. And these young people feel real strongly about the First Amendment. They feel very strongly about how the police are called to, to deter their First Amendment rights by the actual presidents and administration of these universities. If this bill goes through and you sign it, you may, you may please some people. Those people that are demonstrating on campuses will not be impressed.

Scheer: Yeah. We live in an alternate, what do they call it? Alternative universes and, those young people, they, I don’t know, you say they’re… I can’t believe that they really care that much about what goes on there that’s not the ballgame. The ballgame is that was a big vote, majority of Democrats and obviously Republicans say that you criticize Netanyahu and you’re committing a crime, that’s what that says, right? And now they’re going to shove that before me if it gets through the Senate. I can’t even get out there and denounce it because then I’ll be accused of… right? I supported Israel every hour of my life, but I’ll be accused of criticizing Netanyahu, then you’re an anti Semite, right?

And the other thing is, you went to Fordham, something about, not every Christian has always been so open on this question. And I got the Trump’s Protestant radical wing there. And they’re more for Israel than anybody. And so they’ll eat me for lunch if I don’t sign that bill. If it gets through, what are you, telling me here? We’re in the real weird you know what, you’ve been around 27 years. This is a tougher hand than we have because at least before we had a clear enemy. Now, we got Putin, and now we gotta wrap this up, but you gotta tell me if the situation in Ukraine, now that we’re sending them all this weapons, and we voted for this thing, that’s a chump change. Yeah, most of it comes back to our own private defense industry and everything, but still, I see at least some news reports that the stuff’s working now.

We can shoot further into Russia, right? We can get them. The stuff’s starting to show up. So we’ll at least have a victory in the Ukraine there before the election, something positive that I can offset it. Because this thing in Israel is just going to keep being a big mess and it’s not a winner for me. But the Ukraine, that should turn up positive now, right? Before the election. Let’s wrap this up, Ray, because I’ve got other meetings and everything, but give me some good news here on the Ukraine.

McGovern: Mr. President, I really wish I could, but if we have very little time, I’ll just be very blunt. You’ve been lied to about Ukraine. This extra money, these extra armaments, I’m not going to make. any difference at all in the trajectory of the Russian victory. The only thing that should be up most in all our minds is whether Mr. Putin will decide to have that victory before the election in November or later. In every other speech, he insists that he’s ready for negotiations, but not with the likes of Zelensky and his so-called formula.

Mr. President, the outlook is very bleak. the success of the Russian forces, which I guess comes as a surprise to you because of how you’ve been misled, is inexorable, and it’s going to happen. Now, Putin has made it clear, actually he made it clear a year and a half ago, that his aims are limited, he even raised Odessa.

Scheer: Limited? He went up there to Kiev. He was going to take over the whole country.

McGovern: He couldn’t possibly do that with the small group of forces that they sent up that way. And as you know Mr. President, and as everyone knows now, there was an agreement in April whereby Ukraine would remain neutral and they’d stop the fighting. And it was, the British and your administration that put the kibosh on that agreement. Just be aware that when people tell you to say that the Russians, won’t stop there,that they’ll go on to Poland or the Baltics. Mr. President, just realize for your own information, the Russians did stop. Okay?

They stopped at the end of March, the beginning of April. We have all kinds of testimony, including the Ukrainian negotiators who negotiated this agreement. All they want is no Ukraine. in NATO, and that was not sufficient to, it was sufficient to Zelensky. They initialed the thing. But just the major point here is that the Russians already stopped. All they wanted was what they had, okay? And they would negotiate the rest of it. Now, it’s not going to be that good a deal now. But there’s still the possibility of a deal. And when I mention Odesa, Putin himself said Odesa, a beautiful city could be a, what do you call it? He called it a source of discord.

Go back to the Trojan War, if you will. It could be an apple of discord or a way to come together and work out mutually advantageous, peaceful. Now, he said that openly, he said that at the end of a four hour interview or questions and answers. Maybe your people didn’t call your attention to that, but in our view, those of us who think that they’re, that the Russians are serious about not wanting to do the whole schmear. Not wanting to do all of Ukraine. They don’t want their own Vietnam, and they’re not prepared to go to Western Europe, of course. Just for your information, this is very good propaganda to justify more arms or more expenditures to the military industrial complex, but it ain’t reality, Mr. President. And so there is a prospect and, I want to tell you this because you probably don’t hear it from anyone else.

There is a prospect where negotiations can attenuate your problems in the next several months. Without negotiations, it’s a Russian victory, and the question that the Russians will have to face is how soon they do that, whether before November or after November. And, it’s really hard to predict how they look at it. They say they favor you as a predictable person, they favor you over Trump. How to interpret that? I think Putin is really afraid of your competitor, of this person who might be, the next president as he was before. And the whole thing is predictability, okay? If you have an unpredictable person with his fingers on the codes to their nuclear forces, that’s the last thing the Russians want.

That’s why they have never favored Trump. And I can prove that. Okay, now they’re saying it out loud. You have something going here, Mr. President. Putin has said he favors you, but he’s not going to suffer a defeat on Ukraine. He’s quite capable and able and willing to suffer, to inflict a defeat on the United States. Now, the last thing I want to say here is that I go back to President Kennedy, as you probably remember, I came down to Washington when he was president, and because of his appeal to do something for your country. Now, one thing he said in his June 10, 1963 speech, when I was a new person at the CIA, he said, look, the worst thing you can do is to give another nuclear power a choice between humiliating retreat and using nuclear weapons.

Okay. Now, after the Cuban Missile Crisis, both sides honored that. They never challenged one another. This is different. There’s a proxy war going on in Ukraine. It’s the U.S. against Russia again. And many of us are fearful that the Russians will not be tempted to use nuclear weapons. But when push comes to shove, if there’s a total Russian victory before the election your people advising you from the State Department and from the National Security Council might be inclined to say, Mr. President, you could use one of these low yield nuclear weapons and Mr. President that would be the end of all of us. We just want to tell you that’s our view on that. It’s rather naive to think that low yield nuclear weapons would not yield to higher yield nuclear weapons.

Scheer: Ray thank you for your service but this is not actionable. I’m not, we’re not pulling back. We’ve spent all this money. We haven’t even gotten it, most of it over there. A lot of respect that you know Russian, that you’ve been the leading expert there. I got that. I got it all. That’s why I put up with you. But the fact of the matter is we’re not going to spend all of this money, whether it’s on Israel, whether it’s on Taiwan, which we haven’t even talked about. I’m going to spend a hundred billion dollars more after all we put in there.

You’re telling me I got to retreat or we’ve got to accept Putin? No. We’ve said, in Israel they’re saying Hamas, they’re finished. They’re toast. Putin is toast. we’ll see what we can do about China. We’re now sending them more stuff, Taiwan to resist, but we’re over the days of, yeah, you want me to do what Reagan did when he embraced Gorbachev, but Reagan was, a little bit maybe senile. That’s why he did it. But I’m not going down that road route. No, I got all my marbles and we’re going to hang tough. And so you just check your briefings here because you’re coming in really pessimistic. And I, as I say, we respect you, Ray. But, let’s lighten it up a little bit with some good options. All right. Just think good options. Okay. And we are in an election.

McGovern: Mr. President, I just closed by saying that, I was briefing Reagan’s, top advisors for them, the very top, during his first term. And I watched with delight how he reached out, finally, to sensible people in Russia. and all kinds of peace and arms control agreements were signed. Now, so that, that’s part of that one history. Now, the other thing about Taiwan, which we didn’t mention, is, I think the situation is encapsulated in a very brief comment by Xi Jinping, okay? Now, the background is that this fellow Ma, I forget his last or first names, He visited. He was a previous prime minister or president of, Taiwan, okay?

Scheer: He was a Shanghai Shed guy, right?

McGovern: Yeah, yeah. So he visits Beijing and he’s received by Xi Jinping, the leader of China. And what Xi Jinping says, look, Ma, we’re not going to let outside interventionists prevent family reunion. That’s the way they look at it. The Chinese have all the time in the world from their point of view. There’s no prospect in our view that the Chinese are about to launch an armed attack on Taiwan. And we see a lot of budgetary intelligence designed to justify further expenditures on our Navy, Air Force, and so forth, to justify building them up against a Chinese. Chinese threat against Taiwan that doesn’t exist. So that’s our take on that. Just want to make sure that you knew that. Scheer: All right, Ray. Again, try to make it a little bit more cheerful next time. And we respect your service, but, you’re talking to some younger people over, not too young, not those college students, but you got to see if you can find some other people there that maybe are not as frozen into the old arms control kind of stuff that you came through. Because I don’t think that’s on anybody’s agenda now, arms control issues. Anyway, I gotta go to a meeting, Ray but, as I say, I do respect your service, hang in there. Take care.